Exploring Belonging with Charlie Nelms and Philip Amerson

Clock strikes ten.

Coffee time again while the world is

rushing to its judgment day. Judgment

day. Welcome to the

To Be Do podcast from

the Belonging Exchange with Philip Amerson.

To Be Do has a mission to

foster a sense of belonging, strengthening relationships

through storytelling and shared exchanged

experiences. A belonging exchange, if you will.

Indeed, our website is

belongingexchange.org. Now it's your turn

to be, do, as we enter the Belonging

Exchange. My name is Brad Miller, the producer

cohost of the To Be Do podcast

from the Belonging Exchange. One of the segments that Phil Emerson likes

to have is to have a segment that we like to call

the heartfelt segment, where Phil or his

guest shares something that is on their mind, which is either a

heartburn or a heartwarming thing that is

attracting them right now. So before we get into our great discussion with

our guest today, Phil, what is your

heartburn or heart warming thought for

today? I wanna share a heartwarm

a heartwarming experience, and and it may seem strange that I

would, go to this place. But it actually,

was a time recently when I was crossing the

Ohio River coming back, to Indiana from

Louisville, Kentucky. And, the the bridge there, the

Sherman Minton Bridge, is under construction.

And I guess it was because the traffic slowed down that I

remembered that just below where that bridge,

is today on the Indiana side of the river was

where old Scribner Park was. And it was in

Scribner Park that miss Stella

Newhouse would gather children around,

under those sycamore trees in

that park, and she would bring us cookies and

punch, and we would play games, and she would tell us

stories from the gospel. She told

me the story that I remember now, and it's

important, central to me, the story we call the

Good Samaritan. So

I carry that as a heartwarming experience.

And I realize that as I travel

around the state and nation, I come

across a place others have taught me where I've

had these great moments of learning and enlightenment.

I care I I care about your knowing

that you can do that as well. As you travel

in the weeks and days, months ahead,

Think about those places as you pass by

where someone helped you see the world in a

more Christian, a more Jesus following way.

Thank you, Phil, for that enlightening

heartwarming challenge to all of us to pay

attention to the power of place.

We'll be back with another heartwarming

message from our special guest today following the

interview. In our interview today, Phil Emerson talks with

doctor Charlie Nelms. Doctor Charlie Nelms is a servant

leader, a philanthropist, activist, public intellectual who

has devoted more than half of a century to advancing equity and

excellence for blacks and those from historically marginalized

backgrounds. A native of the Arkansas Delta, he has

served as a chancellor of universities in Indiana, Michigan, and

North Carolina. His highly acclaimed memoir, From

Cotton Fields to University Leadership, All Eyes on Charlie,

was published by the Indiana University Press in 02/2019.

All royalties from the sale of his memoir and other books are

contributed to charitable causes. He currently serves as

president in residence with the United Negro College Fund, UNCF,

president in residence with the American Association of State

Colleges and Universities, and as a mentor to current

and aspiring university presidents. You're gonna love this conversation

between Phil Amerson and Doctor. Charlie Nelms. So let's

get started. Welcome again to

the Be and Do podcast. It's part of the Belonging

Exchange where we seek to reweave the

brokenness in our society, to weave connections among

people, and to help our common life flourish.

And today, I'm delighted to have good friend, doctor

Charlie Nelms, with me. I always wanna call him doctor, and he always

says it's just Charlie. But, welcome welcome, Charlie.

Thank you. Good to be with you. Great to see you.

We're living in interesting times to say the least.

I'm afraid to read the newspaper. Well, I I try not to

read it too every day, but It's all

good. You know? You have to stay informed. Yeah. Yeah. You

do. Well, one of the one of the interesting things as we

come up to February 2025, and

I'm aware that this is Black History Month. And it also

is a time when it seems that a lot of

what I just assumed was normal about

learning about the past and and correcting some of the

misinformation that's out there is,

being challenged. I I'm I'm not a

real believer in just any

language. So DEI, I know, has its problems, but it

also represented something pretty significant

in our nation. I'm wondering your thoughts about what's

happening there. Well, first of all, I wanna start on something very

positive, and that is just I'm sorry. Oh, no. No. No. No. No. No. To

encourage people not to be discouraged. There you are.

To encourage people not to be discouraged because we've been here before.

You know, since 1619, we've been dealing with the same issue

in some configuration or another. Okay?

You know, after the signing of the emancipation proclamation, you

know, and all of the years in between that in 1963,

'60 '4, okay, and then '63 to, you

know, '98 and then now. So don't be discouraged. Okay?

There's there's a way forward, and we must be that

light that light to illuminate

the path. Okay? So that I just wanna say that. Well, I know

you Arkansas was where you grew up. That is right. The

heart of the Arkansas Delta. Yeah. So you've

you've seen a lot of change over the years. I

certainly have. I've seen a lot of change, and and thankfully,

I've been in a I've had an opportunity to be part of that change. You

know? And so that's why I'm encouraged despite all of

it, all of the turbulence. I'm still in encouraged.

Now it's harder to be encouraged some days than others. Okay?

And these last, three weeks have been very, very challenging in terms

of, encouragement. But I have to keep I don't have the option of

I just don't have the option of being tired or, you know,

discouraged continually. Right. Well, I

didn't let the folks listening in who don't already know you, and I'll

bet many of them do, know what an

accomplished person you are. I'm chancellor at

North Carolina Central University. You were chancellor at a couple of

regional campuses here in Indiana University and also a

vice president. And I don't know how many vice presidency you

sees you've had, but, you are a leader in

higher education. What what are your

thoughts about the future of education

and how we might act in positive ways.

Sure. So so thank you very much, Phil. You know, first

of all, I know firsthand that education is the engine of

opportunity. And unless you're born wealthy in this country,

You don't get a chance to enjoy the quality of life to which

many Americans aspire. And that's true for whether you come

from a rural community, an urban community, whether you're black, white,

gay, straight, whatever. Okay? I mean, education

is that engine of opportunity. And so

growing up in the Deep South, I had an opportunity to avail

myself, of an education that not

only transformed my life, but it transformed the lives

of so many others with whom I've had an opportunity to work and come

in contact with over the years. And despite all of the

setbacks and the resegregation of American higher education

and the move to to limit our efforts to

pursue a more equitable America via

education. It's just,

it's sort of a setback, if you will, a little bit.

But we don't have to step back just

because politicians and others are trying to push us back.

Okay? And so it all it all depends on the footing that we

have and the values that we hold and our willingness

to remain and stay focused on those values. Okay.

And not to confuse the structure of things with the substance of

things. Okay. Right. So DEI is a structural

kind of concept, you know, structurally. Equity, though,

is a substantive kind of thing. And what we have to do is to make

sure that we stay with the substance no matter what

we call it or how we organize it.

And I'm a little afraid now that folk

there's a little too much focus on the structure.

Okay. And at a time when we need to recommit

ourselves to the substance of the work because you see, we were pursuing

a more equitable America. Okay, long before the concept

of DEI. DEI is only about twenty five years old as a

concept and as a construct. But we've been pursuing equity work in

this country for a very long time. And, fortunately, I've

had an opportunity to be a beneficiary of that work and also to be

a part of it. I your comments remind me of an article

I read recently by professor Shepley at Princeton

who has talked about the threat to democracy that she

sees underway right now. But, she says

that's precisely the reason we should, one, stay engaged,

and number two, where we can offer a little friction, a little

different point of view from the predominant one. Does that make

sense to you? It makes perfect sense to me. Okay? I mean, I think

this is the worst time to disengage. Okay? And I think

part of our engagement has to be rooted in the history. Okay? That's

why I feel so strongly about history. And, just yesterday, I

posted something saying that we don't need permission from white

partisan politicians to celebrate black history.

We don't need permission to learn our history. Okay?

Because we know before the advent of a public education for black people in

this country, there were these the rural schools that were

affiliated with churches throughout the South.

Julius Rosenwald, for example, the president and CEO of Sears Roebuck and

Company started over 5,300 small

rural schools throughout the Southern States. Wow. And I take one of

those Rosenwald schools. But but again, so so what we need to

do is is to embed a knowledge has to be rooted

in a historical understanding, not just in a

contemporary celebration of contributions.

Right. And and you and I happen to both be

United Methodists, but we have other backgrounds. But I was

thinking as you were speaking, you know, the United Methodist Church

has just in The United States a 20 institutions

of higher education. I think there are nine HBCUs

that are united eight or nine that are United Methodist related.

So this may be a time to be stepping up and supporting that work

in new ways. Absolutely. In fact, there are 11, schools that

are part of the Black College Fund, which is affiliated, of course, with United

Methodist Church. And I've had the good fortune of working with

those, many of those institutions via the United Negro

College Fund and the Black College Fund. And so now is

the time, I think, for us to invest must much more

in higher in education period. Okay? I mean, p 16

education, not just higher education because that's gonna be

our pathway forward. Okay? And that is, I believe, that

education. And I think there's an opportunity for HBCUs

to play an even a more central role in

terms of social mobility, economic opportunity, and the

strengthening of democracy in this country. Wow. Okay. And and

I'm looking forward to being continuing to be a part of that. Yeah.

That's great. You're you're the one that just used the pathway

forward along your path. I'll bet there have been times when

something has helped you continue, maybe a sacred

artifact that you go back to and think about. Do you have

something like that that you would share with us? Oh, absolutely. I have

lots and lots of artifacts. But one one thing that I did, my mother

years old and she lived independently on our family farm until she

was 85 and had a first stroke. And she had a major stroke and

they said she'd never be able to walk or talk again. And she proved

them wrong. She made a comeback.

Recording of my mama. I did a recording, and I asked

her about what life had been like for her and what advice she had for

her grandchildren and her great grandchildren. And and I made a a tape of that.

Children. And, and I made a tape of that and

I have kept that. Okay. And when

I would have these moments of temporary

discouragement at Indiana university and other places,

I would take that tape and I would walk around and I would listen to

my mother's, you know, okay. And people will

see me smiling and they wouldn't know what I was smiling about,

But that just gave me so it's given me so much strength and

comfort over the years to keep on keeping on. Okay? Wow. Because

by the time I got to Indiana University and Columbia University, my mama

had already convinced me that and all of her children that we could be

whatever we wanted to be. And I believe that. So

so I had that little moment of dis disappointment is discouragement,

but my mama. Okay. So I just always kept that.

And I prayed it for my son, our son. And so but, anyway, this that's

one of them. Powerful, powerful story. Thank you,

doctor Charlie Nelms, for sharing with us today. We'll look

forward to hearing from you again in the future. This is Philip Amerson

with the Belonging Exchange. And thank

you, Philip and Charlie, for that for that really powerful

conversation. And as Phil indicated, Charlie will

be Charlie Nelms will be back with us again on our upcoming

episode of the To Be Do podcast.

And now as promised, Charlie is going to share with us a

heartwarming moment from his life.

I had the good fortune of being at Lincoln University

in Pennsylvania, the institution from which,

Lexington Hughes and Thurgood Marshall both

graduated, Cap Calloway of other people. And I had

an opportunity to be there for the announcement of a gift

from the Lilly Endowment to Thurgood Marshall College Fund.

And it was in the same room where

Thurgood Marshall and his debate team prepared, to debate

predominantly white teams around the country and to win.

And it was at the time when a number of negative orders

were being signed that would undo some understanding and

appreciation for that history. And for that moment for that

moment that I was in that library where where where Thurgood

Marshall once walked and studied and all of that kind of

thing, it was just, it was powerful. And there was

a student there who spoke, who accepted the gift and so on and so forth,

one of the acceptance, speakers. And it was just,

it was just powerful, impactful.

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