Phil Amerson [00:00:01]:

Greetings, everyone. This is Philip Amerson with the Belonging Exchange again, where we talk about the importance of interdependence more than independence and relationship and connections. And one of the people that I've admired over the years is Tom Heaton, and I'm well, Tom senior by 15 or 20 years, but even so, he brings a whole lot of experience, and some of it experiences that very few people. People have. And I've known Tom as a good preacher, good pastor, if you want to read his blog. I appreciate it every time I get a chance to read. Tom, welcome. It's great to have you with us today.

Tom Heaton [00:00:49]:

It's nice to be had. No, I mean, it's good to be here with you, Phil.

Phil Amerson [00:00:54]:

Tom, we talked earlier about Mission Guatemala. We could talk about so many things. We could probably do two weeks, weeks just on Evansville, but. And goodness knows, if we were to talk about the church and mission and justice, well, we might have, who knows, a marathon program. But I want to go to a subject that I know may be tender, but I think could be very helpful for those who listen to this podcast. You're in the unenviable position of having had two sons and both of them died tragic deaths. Jose and Manny, different circumstances. Can you share a bit about? Not so much.

Phil Amerson [00:01:54]:

Well, tell us about those young men, but about your response as a Christian, as a pastor to these tragedies.

Tom Heaton [00:02:06]:

Sure. Jose was my oldest son. He. He was my challenge. I think, you know, there might be some parents that will know what I mean when I use those code words. But, yeah, he was just, you know, he was a challenge. Came into my life when he was 12 years old. But, you know, just the biggest thing about Jose was I often thought he would always get himself in trouble at school because he was just loud.

Tom Heaton [00:02:43]:

Jose was a kid that could walk into the room and you would know he was there. I mean, just. Just his presence there somehow, you know, was loud. Amazing athlete, so much fun to watch play soccer. Just, I mean, you know, he. He. Ever since he could walk, he was kicking a. You know, kicking a ball.

Tom Heaton [00:03:05]:

You know, Manny was quite different, five years younger than Jose. A little bit of an introvert, but he was. He was. He was. I always said he always kind of had this, you know, these are my churchy pastor words, but, you know, kind of always had this real sense of justice. I mean, you know, whenever he would see someone being treated unfairly or something, you know, that was unfair, I mean, it really bought, you know, bothered him, and he would, you know, talk to me about it and it would kind of, kind of call him out, you know, hard worker, worked for Toyota. They loved him, you know, because he, he was, he was always there early and stayed, you know, stayed late, you know, and doing, doing his factory, you know, position there, but, you know, kind heart, a real sense of justice. And he always got upset for some reason when I always said he was funny.

Tom Heaton [00:04:01]:

I think he, I think he, he viewed that as like, you know, not a compliment, but I always, always meant it, you know, as a compliment. But anyway, that, that's a little bit about both of them. I forgot the second part of your question though.

Phil Amerson [00:04:16]:

Well, tell us how they, they were both killed.

Tom Heaton [00:04:20]:

Yeah, they both, Jose was, was shot. Both of them were, were killed by acts of violence. Both, both by guns. So I've got some strong feelings around, you know, around that. Jose was in Guatemala when this happened while I was in the United States. I have a police report which is pretty lightweight, you know, about, about what happened. To their credit at the time, the, the U.S. embassy did the best they could to help get information, but it's just very difficult in that Guatemala system there.

Tom Heaton [00:05:00]:

But he was riding a bus and someone came on the bus with a gun and he had three gunshots that ended up ending his life. My younger son Manny was out with someone fishing at late at night and ended up being murdered, murdered by them. And as we, you know, think things unfolded around that it was part of a identity theft, money, money stealing scheme that this person thought they were so smart, you know, so smart in doing and they would never get caught. And you know, when they were about ready to get caught, they ended his life so that he wouldn' wouldn't turn them in. So that's kind of the nutshell. All of these stories. I spent months trying to decode a lot of this stuff. They go far deeper than that.

Tom Heaton [00:06:02]:

But that's pretty much the summary of both of them. Again, the details on Jose's death are just pretty sketchy still.

Phil Amerson [00:06:12]:

So as a parent, as a Christian, as a spiritual, on a spiritual journey, talk about what these two violent tragedies have meant to you in shaping who you are.

Tom Heaton [00:06:31]:

I, I feel like I pro, I mean, I, I, I, you know, initially just respond, I responded to, you know, I think to both of them with just, you know, this deep sense of grief and loss. You know, so much of your life is dedicated and, you know, poured into your, you know, into your, into your children and trying, you know, trying to make them successful and in, in term, you know, whatever success means that's always kind of a. A weird word, but to make them successful. And, you know, and by that you could be judged as being a successful parent because you had, you know, you had successful children. But, you know, there was certainly a deep, you know, a deep sense of grief, you know, a deep sense, you know, of loss. Everything with Manny is just so much more fresh. I mean, that was three years ago. And it's.

Tom Heaton [00:07:31]:

It's probably a little easier for me to talk about that than, you know, than with Jose. But I. I think. I think I became, you know, just so much. It's one of these things I preach, I talk about, I believe, but, you know, when it happens to you, you become more, you know, more aware of it. But just the. The deep way in which. In which you, you know, God's presence through all the people that surround you and care.

Tom Heaton [00:08:02]:

Care about you and care, you know, care for you during especially the most. The most difficult times. And so I, you know, I was fortunate to really be just surrounded, you know, by. By a lot of folks that. That. That support me, supported me through that. I. I did not have.

Tom Heaton [00:08:25]:

Have a deep sense. You would think I would, but for some reason, I have not had a deep sense of anger around what happened to me. And I think part of that comes from my understanding that if I get angry and stay angry at the person who did this, they continue to have control over me. They're controlling my life, and they're the one causing the anger. And they already took Manny from me. I'm not going to let them take anything else from me and that anger. But, you know, from. And I mean, it.

Tom Heaton [00:09:08]:

I feel like I'm just babbling here and talking.

Phil Amerson [00:09:10]:

No, no, no.

Tom Heaton [00:09:11]:

But. But, you know, I. And sometimes it just, you know, the support and caring came from places that you might not necessarily, you know, expect, but the. Where Manny died, it. It was on state property. It was in a state park. And so it fell under the jurisdiction of the Department of Natural Resources. And a detective for the Department of Natural Resources, a man named Trent Stinson, came and, you know, knocked.

Tom Heaton [00:09:43]:

Knocked on my door and told me, you know, told me what had happened. I don't remember. 10 minutes. There's 10 minutes there that I just. I just don't. I just don't remember anything. But. And then, you know, Trent told me, because it happened on DNR property.

Tom Heaton [00:10:01]:

DNR was in charge. He was going to be the lead detective on it. And, you know, honestly, after that, my thought went to, oh, my gosh, DNR is in charge. Barney Fife is going to be the one, you know, investigating, you know, all this. But I was so wrong. I was so wrong. I was just terribly wrong. And, you know, Trent.

Tom Heaton [00:10:27]:

Trent journeyed with me from that day until the very last day in the courtroom. And, and still, still, every. Every few weeks, I'll get a text message or something, you know, you know, from him. And again, I just. I kind of feel like that's just God. You know, that's a God thing. That's God's, you know, you know, presence kind of showing continuing concern. And I, I, I don't know.

Tom Heaton [00:10:55]:

I could talk. I feel like I'm kind of all over the place because it's just relatively new experience. But I think if you. If you're just willing to open your eyes and, you know, just see and realize all the people that are there for you, I think it's. I think it's just all part of God's warm embrace around you at such a difficult, you know, a difficult time.

Phil Amerson [00:11:18]:

What did you learn about prayer or about faith or even about being a pastor?

Tom Heaton [00:11:29]:

You know, I. I think, you know, I. You've. You and I have talked some about this, you know, prior to this, and you've seen some things that, you know, I've written. But I think. I think, you know, in terms of prayer, I think it just help me, you know, realize that, you know, the God that I know and the God that I want to worship is not a God that's manipulative, pulling strings, making things happen, you know, kind of the puppet master God, you know, if you would want to use that phrase. But God was always. I feel like God was always present in the midst of my hurt.

Tom Heaton [00:12:15]:

And as I cried, God cried with me. And in. I've come to understand that prayer is a lot more about pausing in, taking the time to be present with the one who is always present with you. And that's been, you know, just been super helpful. It, you know, in terms. In terms of ministry or, you know, just being a pastor. I'm not an active pastor now, so I can't. I can't say, like, I do, you know, do this or, or do that differently, but I do think, you know, I think anybody that's been a pastor, every time they walk into a new or different situation, you know, they always walk away from it having just a deeper understanding and, and feeling that people allow you into some of the, you know, the most sacred moments, you know, of their life.

Tom Heaton [00:13:17]:

And I. I think it's, you know, I Think probably as a pastor just in terms of speaking and things. It's. It's allowed me to identify and to be able to speak more about, you know, about God being present in those, you know, darkest and most difficult moments.

Phil Amerson [00:13:41]:

So what do you say when you preach?

Tom Heaton [00:13:46]:

Well, I don't. I mean, I don't a lot anymore, but I, I mean, I, I just always. I, you know, it depends. I guess it depends on, you know, depends on the moment. I, you know, I, I go bonkers at people talking about, you know, those phrases like, you know, God must have needed him more than you did, or, you know, I mean, all, all of the. In just all of the kind of you theology that's there. I mean, you know, my preaching around this or speaking around this, you know, tends to be more that. I don't believe God had anything to do with Manny's death.

Tom Heaton [00:14:24]:

I think God had everything to do with being. Being present during, you know, present with him at that moment, you know, present with me and all who loved and cared about him, you know, after his death. Just, Just surrounding us with. With other f. That, you know, people, People that care. Don't know if that did a good job of answering your question, but it's kind of probably something. I'm still processing. Phil.

Phil Amerson [00:14:54]:

Listen, listen, Tom Heaton. It's a great answer. It's something that's helped me just listening to you right now and I know will help others. The God who is always present, even though we're not aware of that.

Tom Heaton [00:15:08]:

Oh, I, I mean, yet, you know, God, you know, God is always present, always with us. My. One of the people who, I think, think, you know, from your time at Claremont, Marjorie Suchocki, a great, I always say, one of the greatest theologians of the past hundred years, that was not an old German man. But, but, you know, she, she always said, and I believe this, you know, God is at work in the world. I'm quote her exactly, but I'm pretty close. God is always at work in the world trying to bring about the best possible good. Sometimes the best possible good isn't very good, but God is still, you know, present with us in those moments, trying to make, you know, make the best out of difficult situations. Even when sometimes, you know, the, the best, the best that can happen is an arm.

Tom Heaton [00:16:08]:

An arm placed around your shoulder.

Phil Amerson [00:16:10]:

Yeah, yeah. Marjorie is a remarkable theologian and I, I find myself these days concerned about our nation and the. There's no nice way to talk about it. The bad theology that so many people seem to think is. Is going to give them points in heaven or credits toward eternal life. And Martin Marty said one of the challenges of our time. He's now deceased, but when he was living, he said it's when people who know the least about the faith are the ones who think they know how to teach the faith, preach. And we're in a time when somehow Christianity is being.

Phil Amerson [00:17:07]:

There's an identity theft that's gone on and people are thinking retribution is something that, that Christians should be engaged in and, and not a, and not an ability to. Well, your quote from Marjorie is so apt that sometimes the very best thing, you know, is, Is still a tragic thing.

Tom Heaton [00:17:37]:

Right? Right. Because God. God does not manipulate the universe to turn out the way, you know, the way God wants. The. I. Get bothered whenever I hear many people preach or speak about God being all powerful because in its purest sense of understanding, it means God has all the power. And that simply isn't, isn't, it simply isn't true in the sense that, you know, I, I have, I have, you know, power to make good decisions and bad decisions to make, you know, the decisions that I want to make and the decision or the decisions God wants me to make. The, you know, the flying of a plane into the World Trade center was an act of, you know, an act of power.

Tom Heaton [00:18:39]:

And so, you know, we, we have the power to do. To good, to do good, and the power to do not so good. And I like you, I'm seeing a whole lot of not so good, not so good, you know, these days. But.

Phil Amerson [00:18:57]:

Well, the wonderful preacher John Claypool used to say the worst thing is not the last thing. And I never quite got all that he meant by that, but I get close to believing it. I, you know, I, like you as pastor, have walked into situations, tragic situations. I, I could speak of one just briefly, where I knew there had been a suicide that had occurred and a young boy, a teenage son of this person, fell into my arms. He was in the confirmation class I was teaching. And on that dark winter night, I wasn't sure I believed in a God. And then the family gathered, the sheriff got there after I did, and they asked me to pray.

Tom Heaton [00:20:01]:

That's a tough prayer. That's a tough prayer.

Phil Amerson [00:20:08]:

Yep. And I stumbled through. But somehow I think praying, as you have said, is bringing your brokenness and seeking the heart of God, really, it's

Tom Heaton [00:20:31]:

in. And I mean, and also realizing and knowing God knows those words before they leave your mouth, yet God receives them with the love in the care that only God can receive them.

Phil Amerson [00:20:50]:

Yeah. Well, thank you, Tom, for sharing this vulnerable reality in your life. And I know there are many people who are struggling with grief and brokenness in other ways or maybe even in tragedies like losing Jose and Manny. And your words are words that I believe bring perspective and healing and hope even in such tragedies. So thank you, my friend.

Tom Heaton [00:21:32]:

Well, thank you for having me be with you today.

Phil Amerson [00:21:36]:

Yeah. So this is Phil Amerson with the Belonging Exchange. We will put up ways to connect with Tom, not only the website for Mission Guatemala. Let's see if I have it. It's missionguatemala.com perfect. And there's also reflection pieces or blog pieces at Tom Rice. I encourage the audience to read those. Thank you, Tom Heaton.

Tom Heaton [00:22:08]:

Thank you, Phil. Thank you. Bye.

Phil Amerson [00:22:11]:

Bye.