Rediscovering Church: Interdependence, Hope, and Joy in the Parish Collective with Tim Soerens

Philip Amerson [00:00:01]:

Hello again, everyone. This is Phil Amerson with a to be and do podcast where we understand that inter relationships or interdependence is more important than independence. And during this season, we're talking with pastors and pastoral leaders and teachers and wow, we hit the jackpot. Today we're going to be visiting with Tim Soerens, who's the executive director of the Parish Collective, but he's pastor, he's author, he's many other things, and we've had knowledge of one another for many years, but now we get to be on a podcast together. Tim, welcome.

Tim Soerens [00:00:47]:

It's great to be here, Philip. I'm thrilled to be here.

Philip Amerson [00:00:49]:

Thanks. It's good to have you here. You know, I think I first came across your name when John McKnight said I should know your book, the New Parish. And I think John probably has played a role. Well, many, many of our guests have been influenced by John. But tell me about not only that book, but you've got another book out recently that is everywhere you look. And if people know about John McKnight, they probably understand everywhere you look.

Tim Soerens [00:01:26]:

Well, what a wonderful way to begin with. Gratitude for Mr. John McKnight. He was easily one of the most joyful and from his joy, the wisest people I have ever met. He was a profound influence to me. I'll never forget the first time that I got to meet him in person was at his home in Evanston. And that was not long after the first book came out called the New Parish. And I was there with my wife, and he had put the book on the coffee table.

Tim Soerens [00:02:05]:

And he is a hero, like an icon to me. I couldn't. I was just shocked that I got to meet him. This was many years ago now, and I saw the book and it was like, disorienting and befuddling, actually. And honestly, this is. This is embarrassing to kind of confess, but I thought, huh. My first thought was not, he's honoring me. My first thought was, like, what is.

Tim Soerens [00:02:37]:

What's happening here? Like, I literally was like, I didn't understand. And then, as you well know and other folks who have known John throughout the years would know, he just kept. Kept asking the most generous question after the next generous question, and he was. He was just so curious. He had this beautiful, sacred curiosity about him, and it's one of the things I loved about him the most. So, yeah, I adore and have adored John McKnight. A hero to me.

Philip Amerson [00:03:06]:

John. Well, I. I consider one of my conversion experiences happening in the old Bismarck Hotel in Chicago when I heard John speak one day and I looked down in the front of my shirt was damp because I had been weeping listening to John unfolding a whole new vision for me as a. Not only in ministry, but also for the neighborhoods where we were working.

Tim Soerens [00:03:36]:

Yeah, yeah, you know, some of John's work, folks. Many of the listeners probably have known about asset based community development. It's one of the things that John coined, talked about for decades and decades. And that imagination, you could say that lens really undergirds so much of my work holistically, but particularly with the Parish Collective. He also was a profound guide to many of us, not just in caring for neighborhoods and thinking, imagining and seeing the neighborhood as. As kind of the unit of change that we were pursuing, the way that we could practice our faith, our faith together, the. But that regardless of where we were, there were gifts to uncover, there were ordinary heroes to celebrate, there were stories to unearth. There, regardless of where you were, there was this multiplicity of gifts.

Philip Amerson [00:04:42]:

Well, tell us about your history and maybe in the midst of that, you can tell us when you first knew about John or his asset based community development approach.

Tim Soerens [00:04:55]:

Well, I grew up in Wisconsin, and the short version is I ended up going to seminary in Seattle.

Philip Amerson [00:05:04]:

This.

Tim Soerens [00:05:04]:

The school is now called the Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. And I sometimes joke that when I went to seminary, this was in a different era. I actually studied rhetoric at the University of Wisconsin. And so I was interested, still am, in many ways, for how words create worlds. And specifically, I had been really inspired, I'd say, by a lot of church, largely evangelical churches, who were trying through the Sunday morning experience to welcome in people who wouldn't ordinarily go to a church service. And that was really powerful for me because for most of high school and college, I kind of, even though I grew up in a Christian home, I wasn't, you could say, practicing my faith. I didn't have a lot of Christian friends. I then had this kind of, like, experience where all of a sudden my faith, this idea of grace and the kingdom of God made so much more sense.

Tim Soerens [00:06:06]:

And that's what propelled me into seminary. And so most of my friends were not Christians. And there was like, this huge gap between at that time, at least my understanding of the church and any conceivable way that I could even talk to my friends about this faith that now mattered to me. Certainly I couldn't imagine kind of bringing them to church. So underneath that was the idea to create those kinds of environments, and that then got turned. So I Went to seminary. I joke sometimes that I wanted to be a kind of like rock star preacher, you know, like really great sermon, draw the people in on Sunday dynamic. I think you and many others know exactly what I'm talking about.

Tim Soerens [00:06:49]:

I mean, not like leather coat kind of rock star, but like, you know, winsome, big personality, all that. And underneath it, I'm sure there is lots of ego within that. But there was this beautiful impulse to create a space of hospitality and to create an environment in which people could encounter the Christian faith, which I think is just such a profound gift. Anyway, in seminary, as things happen sometimes that kind of like tugged at and pulled apart and deconstructed in really healthy ways. And in many ways, the earliest seedling of the parish collective in much of my vocation happened at an invite only gathering where I was listening to this Australian missiologist named Michael Frost, who had just written a book with his friend Alan Hirsch called the Shaping of Things to Come. Very influential to me. They were kind of contrasting essentially the kind of model of church where you bring people to come and it could be called attractional and a more like, well, go and be incarnational mode. And that had really grabbed a hold of my heart.

Tim Soerens [00:07:52]:

But what really got me was that Michael said halfway through the day that he and some friends were helping to start this neighborhood church in Sydney, Australia, where he lived, still lives, and that he happened to have the gifts of preaching really well. In fact, he was relatively well known in Sydney and increasingly around the world for his speaking and preaching gifts. And it was specifically because of those gifts that he was not going to speak at this new church because, and this is not my language. That wasn't the game that they were trying to play. They were trying to embed themselves into what God was up to in that neighborhood in Sydney. They were trying to listen. And his gifts at that time in the early formation actually was counter to the, you could say the game that they were trying to play. And I just about fell off my chair when I heard that.

Tim Soerens [00:08:41]:

And in some ways I haven't quite gotten back up that. That just took over my imagination in such a very different way. And so the Parish Collective got going. As I was finishing seminary at that actually gathering, I met an incredible guy named Paul Sparks. He was trying to in some ways, turn around a larger regional attractional church. He already was in some ways, a. A brilliant pastor and preacher. But he and their team were frustrated with the lack of transformation happening.

Philip Amerson [00:09:12]:

Yes.

Tim Soerens [00:09:12]:

And their bet was how we have a sense of how we can get people to come to church. We're really grappling with how we can be and become the church in our everyday lives in this place. And so that was. And in many ways is the animating question for the parish collective is people showing up on Sunday is really, really important. But the big question, the big thing we're after is how do we be and become in our everyday lives through relationships, pursuing the hopes and dreams of God, which is to renew and restore every single thing, every person, every place, every relationship, every system, every structure, every neighborhood, every city, everywhere. That's the big story that we're called into. And yet when you put that as the big why of the church, for some reason it feels like that's not the consensus for the purpose of the church right now, for probably thousands of reasons. But that disconnect, that longing is what birthed the Parish Collective.

Philip Amerson [00:10:15]:

And that's why your work is so encouraging to me, because I think it's about the future and the changing ways. I mean I. This is a little rough for some people to hear, but Christendom is ending. It's over the old assumptions that we had about everyone's going to go to church and everyone's going to share a common view. But ironically, at least for me and I'd be interested in your take. Part of what was core to earlier Christendom was the importance of parish life and the weaving together of a place with the people and a purpose with the people.

Tim Soerens [00:11:03]:

Yes, there is a. One of my favorite books of the last couple years is called. It's by a Mennonite scholar named Alan Kreider. He wrote a book called the Ferment of the Early Church.

Philip Amerson [00:11:13]:

Yes, wonderful.

Tim Soerens [00:11:14]:

It's an incredible text. And one of the things that. I mean that book talks about how the early church there are arguably their most profound value was patience and belief in God being the agent of change. That's what undergirded the patience is belief that God actually was the primary actor and they got to join in that work. Also, it's just worth saying as we reflect upon this moment we're in today and have been in some ways for a while is that. And we'll be going deeper into with technology like just the automobile alone. If you take out the automobile, it's inconceivable to think about our current imagination for what does it mean to go to church, be the church, whatever. I actually think I do actually write about this too as well and everywhere you look.

Tim Soerens [00:12:07]:

But I really dislike the language of going to church. I think it's ontologically impossible and I don't know, it doesn't make any sense to me. It's like, are you going to purple? You know, like that makes no sense actually. Yeah, I've joked with my wife, kind of trying to manipulate our kids to never using that language.

Philip Amerson [00:12:32]:

So there would be no reason for you to know him. But I'm going to take a leap here. I was in Seattle quite a bit, probably in those same years you were. I was down at Claremont School of Theology in California, but would come to Seattle frequently. And one of the teachers at. Out at. Out at your seminary was Bill Welch, William Welch. He was a retired United Methodist clergy person, had pastored some large churches.

Philip Amerson [00:13:02]:

But he's one of the people that would talk to me after he had attended four or five services on a weekend. I don't know how he did it. He. And he would be at the Catholic Cathedral, he would be downtown, he would be around, but he would talk about the future of the church is not yet in our. In our lens. And he actually in those years was pointing to some of the work of Harvey Cox, who was, I think, writing about not only religionless Christianity, but about these small adroit house church, but different models of being the church. And I remember Bill was always poking me, saying, what are you teaching at seminary that will help these pastors?

Tim Soerens [00:13:48]:

Yeah, I mean, you know, Philip, something that I think about a whole lot, just about every day, certainly every week, is how the practical purpose of the church, both for us as those that are following Jesus and would consider ourselves Christians or seeking to be Christian, but especially in some ways more importantly for our just everyday neighbors, regardless of what their faith is. The fact that there is no consensus as to what the church exists for is to me the big question beneath the question that I know that it's not helpful to just have a single answer and then try and like prove it in some ways. But I just feel like we don't talk about this enough that, you know, if you walk down the street and you go by a library, you know what that exists for. If you go to the gas station, you know what that exists for. You walk by a church building, for example, I think that's underneath a lot of the decline and we live in an attention economy. So if we're not clear about why we are deserving of some attention, we gotta keep talking about this and figuring it out.

Philip Amerson [00:14:58]:

So we're going to talk again in the next episode, but talk a little bit about where you see Hope or see new opportunities emerging?

Tim Soerens [00:15:09]:

Well, I. Over the last, oh, 14, 15 years have probably been. And I haven't actually. There's not a proper count. I should have, but I've been in hundreds of neighborhoods. Five, six, seven hundred neighborhoods, I think. And every time that I'm anywhere new and frankly, revisiting with older friends, the question is always, what do you see God up to here? What's God doing? And that's a fundamentally different question than, like, well, how many people are coming on Sunday? Or even, you know, what's the latest gossip within the denomination? Or what do you think about AI and preaching? I mean, these are all important. But I think the most fundamental question that we can be asking if it's hope that we're looking for, is always a God question.

Tim Soerens [00:16:02]:

It's always a question of what is God up to? And I've never asked that question sincerely and had time to listen, and I haven't been inspired ever. And so, in fact, this is something I would say listeners can do just amongst one another, amongst. As they're traveling amongst friends and colleagues. What is God doing? And it can be really small. It can be an opening to a conversation that had long been prayed for. It can be big, too. But to me, that is the fundamental question, if it's hope that we long for. And I think that hope is as important like so many other people.

Tim Soerens [00:16:42]:

It's like oxygen. It's vital. It's necessary. We absolutely need it. And I think our neighbors need it as well.

Philip Amerson [00:16:50]:

Yeah. Well, you've added another question for me to ask. I already had one from our mutual friend Diamond Hargis.

Tim Soerens [00:16:58]:

Oh, yeah.

Philip Amerson [00:16:59]:

Diamond's question is, where do you find joy? But you've just added maybe a more. Well, an equally important question. Yeah, yeah, I think.

Tim Soerens [00:17:13]:

I often think those two things go together. I love that question from Diamond. It gives even more flavor and structure and color to the question of where do you see hope? And it also makes the question of where do you find joy? A bit more particular to people. And so, yeah, I mean, I think there's lots of ways to find joy, but my. And certainly I'm always looking for it in both my own neighborhood and other neighborhoods. One thing that I think is countercultural, that I think he would agree with, is that it's easier to find joy if we can slow down and ask more particular questions. I think that there is a. I think the relationship between speed and joy are not opposed necessarily, but I think that slowing down allows to see and uncover joy more fervently.

Philip Amerson [00:18:21]:

Oh, joy and hope and speed. In our time, we're doing retreats with our little family foundation for clergy. And one of the things we've discovered is many clergy feel so overwhelmed that they don't think they have time to slow down and laugh and play and rest and get to know others.

Tim Soerens [00:18:50]:

Yes. Yeah. And one of the. One of the reasons that those environments are so important and so powerful is that sometimes, you know, we were talking about interdependence. I think we do literally need one another, particularly in the kind of frenetic culture that we live in now. We need one another. We need to be invited into slowing down, and I think we need to see it modeled. And that happens at least, can happen really beautifully at retreats.

Tim Soerens [00:19:23]:

My hunch is that maybe some resistance to some of the folks who might come to retreats is, oh, I don't know if I can or, I don't know, they might not say this out loud, but I don't know that I'm worthy of a retreat. I don't know if I've earned it. And, oh, that's just kind of heartbreaking when you think about it, really.

Philip Amerson [00:19:40]:

Well, we're going to talk more about this. I know the Parish Collective is doing a lot of things, and in the next podcast, we'll talk more about what you're doing there. But how good to have you with us. Tim Soerens. And for Phil Amerson for Tim, we're signing off and hoping you'll find time to slow down a bit. Look for the hope and the joy. God bless. Bye.

Philip Amerson [00:20:09]:

Bye.