Revitalizing Faith: Identity Over Activity in Changing Times with Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross

Philip Amerson [00:00:00]:

Greetings, everyone. This is Phil Amerson again with the To Be and Do podcast. We're fortunate to be in the middle of recording conversations with Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross. And Javon is. I've known him sort of from a distance, but we've become much better friends in the last few months. And the, the people of Indiana, not just United Methodists, are so fortunate to have his leadership. And we mentioned his book, Not Just Sunday, and we'll give you links to that and other ways to benefit from Dr.

Philip Amerson [00:00:42]:

Gross Caldwell Gross's work. But what I wanted to specifically point to, Javon, is your understandings of what it means to do revitalization in the year 2025 and forward. Talk a little bit about what you're learning and what you're beginning to share.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:01:07]:

Yeah, sure. So whenever I talk about revitalization, I like to reframe it around, not just resourcing or helping dying churches come alive again. I think there's one aspect to that, but I also think the revitalization is an invitation for every size church to reimagine and rethink who they might be in this new landscape of ministry. Because the church that you had in 2019 is no longer present. You know, if your pastor is just as a different church, people have different rhythms. The expectations of how people find community are different. How they receive and give information is different. And so the way I talk about it is, you know, it's not just helping the church trying to figure out, you know, how do we survive, but how can we be the church? And again, I always talk, I always start with identity before activity, because sometimes the activity is not connected to who we, who we are called to be.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:02:15]:

We. We. You know, we start with what did we do for No. B. That's why I love the title of your podcast. And so that's the way that I, I reframe revitalization. You know, who is God calling you to be in this new landscape of ministry? And if we can identify who we're called to be, then we can get more closer to what we're called to do, because the do will always change. And then as we look at that, I will start with two theological questions with what it means as we interpret.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:02:52]:

What it means to be revitalized is, number one, what do I truly believe about God? You know, what, what do I not? What do I believe about the budget? What. What do I believe about the changing community? No, don't. No, I don't want, I don't want to know. I. I know you Done. The demographic. What do you believe about God? Because any work of revitalization, you've got to look at it through the lens of your own theology. And because as you look at your budget, as you look at your changing community, as you look at your building, as you look at the number of people who come on Sunday mornings, if you don't look at that through the lens of your own theology, you'll let what you see determine who you are and what you're called to do.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:03:39]:

No, I think if we help churches to really identify their own theology around God, if you really believe that God is a provider, if you really believe all these things that you say about God, then that will inform your approach to your efforts to revitalize your congregation. And not only what you believe about God, but what do you believe about the resurrection? So is what every church are. We, you know, Christ died and then rose again on the third day. We. Oh, okay, okay, okay. So, so, so if that's what, if that's what you believe about your faith, then let's put your theology about who you know God to be and Christ's work with the resurrection. How does that apply to your work and who you're called to be in this new, in this new landscape? Because helping churches to live the resurrection, because part of the resurrection, there was a dying and, you know, so don't look at death. Don't look, don't, don't, don't look at that through the, through natural lens, but look at it through the lens of what you believe about God.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:04:49]:

And that's normally where I start with that.

Philip Amerson [00:04:51]:

So identity rather than activity. That's terrific. And, and I love what you're saying about the resurrection. I, I can remember when it hit me full. Well, I won't tell the whole story, but I remember one Sunday morning I was serving communion, and I looked at that long aisle, and there were some people in that aisle that I almost thought, I'm not going to give them the communion. I know about them. I know about the cheating and the lying and the, the other stuff. And it hit me, Phil, this is the body of Christ.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:05:35]:

That's right.

Philip Amerson [00:05:37]:

This can be the resurrected body of Christ. Don't get in the way, man.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:05:44]:

That's right.

Philip Amerson [00:05:45]:

Don't get in the way. That's the resurrection that we preach.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:05:50]:

You know, one of my first, My first appointment in the United Methodist Church was a small church in southern New Jersey, Hamilton Memorial United Methodist Church. And again, I just graduated from Princeton Theological Seminary. I did an internship, two years at A larger Baptist church in Brooklyn, New York. And I'm thinking, you know, going. This church is going to skyrocket in the next three years. It'll have, you know, 5,000 people. I get a call from a district superintendent, and on my first Sunday, there were 27 people to show up.

Philip Amerson [00:06:26]:

Hey, there you go.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:06:27]:

27 people that showed up.

Philip Amerson [00:06:30]:

We call that an opportunity.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:06:32]:

So, yeah, you. You. You say that jokingly, but there was one point in time when I realized that this was a place that God had called me to serve. And I would give my best to those 27 people. I would. I would. I would. I would.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:06:55]:

I. My sermon preparation did not change for when I was pastoring those 27 people to when I was at St. Luke's preaching in front of 3,500 people. I have, I have, I have. It was just as serious then than it. Than it was when I was at St. Luke's but I remember thinking, you know, one of the most pivotal days. I remember standing on the parking lot at the service one day, and I remember looking at the community, looking at the church, and really coming to grips with.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:07:31]:

There's a lot of possibility here. There's a lot of. There's a lot of possibility. But here's the. You know, but here's what challenged me is because it was almost God reminded me that the call to make disciples and making disciples suggested there has to be some work. There had to be. So there were. You know, there were.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:07:55]:

There. There were leaders in there, but they needed to be trained and equipped. There were. There are people in there with gifts, but I needed to put time into developing them, and it was my responsibility. I even talk about this in the book because so many people talk about they don't have people, the necessary skills in the congregation to do this new landscape of ministry. But I think there's a. A re. Invitation now for the church to equip people.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:08:28]:

So you may not have anybody in your church with the necessary skills you need. Well, Jesus didn't either. That's why Jesus spent the next three years equipping people for the work of ministry. And so I remember standing on that corner years ago in that small church of 27 people. And as I felt the invitation and the call for possibility it was. Was also a call to equip people. And that has never left me. Never left me.

Philip Amerson [00:08:54]:

That's terrific. That's terrific. I. Well, I don't want to turn this into Phil telling stories, but I remember one day I was. I was pastoring a little predominantly African American Church in Evansville, Indiana.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:09:09]:

Yeah.

Philip Amerson [00:09:09]:

And I don't think we had 27 on my first Sunday. But you know what? There were people in that community and in that church, many of them children who had grown up in that church but no longer came there. And one day I was walking toward the church and I came across a young woman, Jaicelyn Thomas. She was an executive with one of the firms, the advertising firms in, In Evansville from Cleveland. She had just moved there. And something led me to say, how about, how about coming to church on Sunday? Well, when I get to the other side, I've got some questions, and one of them is, why did Jocelyn Thomas die so young? Because she was one of the best preachers I ever heard. Had a. Had a full ride to Candler Seminary and then was doing her PhD at Van Vanderbilt in preaching with David Buttrick and developed Lupus.

Philip Amerson [00:10:17]:

Jaisalin, who just knew enough music to sort of find the middle C on the piano, decided she was going to start a children's choir. And I can still see those 19 little kids double pumping up the aisle, and my poor son can't figure out the rhythm. But, but that was not Phil's doing. It was just Phil being alert to say, hey, Jason, have you got a church?

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:10:52]:

That's right.

Philip Amerson [00:10:53]:

And the Lord did all the rest.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:10:55]:

That's right, that's right, that's right. And again, goes back to what we believe about God. You know, if we, if we believe that God will do the rest, that gives us a different approach to how we look at what's possible through our local churches. You know, we do what we can, even if it's just asking the question and then knowing that there's a. There's a God element to what, to what we do, especially when it comes to revitalization or living out who we're called to be. So I think so much of how we talk about revitalization, it leaves the God element out.

Philip Amerson [00:11:31]:

There you are.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:11:32]:

It puts so much of the, of the human circumstance in it, as if that's the end, right? As if the 27 people are the end, you know, as, as. As if what we see, that there's no more. But. But what? But what. But what if that. We invited God into that process, into that conversation.

Philip Amerson [00:11:52]:

So it must be a challenge for you, because I'll bet some people think you're going to give them a formula. There's.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:12:01]:

So that's one of the hardest part, because revitalization is, is more of a journey and a walk with God as It is of telling people what to do. And while they're also, while, while there are some best practices, some of those best practices sometimes don't translate to different communities or different cultural contexts, you know, or there's some different nuances within, within a congregation that sometimes we don't take, that we don't take note of. But one of the best things about revitalization that I try to get people to do is the ability to think and the ability to discern. And so even, even, you know, even, even in my book, sometimes people will, you know, I give examples, but it's hard to just tell people, here's what you have to do. It's just that's, that's not how it happens. And so as a congregation, you know, you've got to be willing to think. And you know, my, the reason, you know, why I write, the reason even why I preach is just to help congregations and pastors and leaders to develop the skill of thinking again. We talked the first episode I about my academic background and, and whether if it's I'm at Kalamazoo College or Princeton or Wesley.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:13:26]:

The. One of the greatest skills was critical, was critical thinking because churches, you know, I wish the seminary prepared you for everything and it doesn't. But what it does do is that it prepares you to think. And that's one of the best, best tools for revitalize, revitalizing a congregation that I can, you know, that I can give people.

Philip Amerson [00:13:50]:

Wow. Wow. I, I am so grateful that you're in this role and that, that, you know, critical thought is so central when, and how can people. Well, I was going to, Let me, let me go another place because it's the same place in a way. How does the scripture apply and how does the study of scripture help people know how to think evangelistically?

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:14:25]:

Yeah.

Philip Amerson [00:14:26]:

In appropriate evangelistic ways. I mean, we're facing a time when some people think, just turn the nation into a Christian dominated place and that'll fix everything and it won't. There's something else much more important.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:14:42]:

Yep, absolutely. Well, I would say the, the, the first place in scripture that I think invites people into this revitalization process is I think it was Psalm 139 where they asked the question, how do we sing the lower song in a strange land? You know, how do we, how do we do this? You know, and they had to, they had to figure it out. You know, they had to, they asked, they asked the critical question. They asked the critical question. We are being taken away from what we know. We are being taken away from our lands and our faith will have to look very differently. And you know, and they realize that. But ask the question, how do we still maintain our faith in this new land?

Philip Amerson [00:15:27]:

Right.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:15:28]:

So, so I'm not saying, you know, that we're being taken into Babylon, but I do think the church is being taken into unknown lands. And to ask the how do we still maintain our faith? How do we still live out our faith? How do we still be the people of God in a strange land? And I think it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a critical question that I don't think people are willing to ask because for, for, you know, for, for them it was going to look dramatically different. But what they didn't do is that they didn't throw in the towel. They, is that they learned, literally, they learned how to sing the Lord's song in a strange land. You know, they, they learned when to pray, when to what, when, when, where they needed to face. You know, there were, there were different things that they had to learn, different skills that they had to learn how to acquire in order for them to still be the people of God in the strange place. And I don't think it's any different today.

Philip Amerson [00:16:32]:

So Jeremiah 29 or Isaiah 55, 56 talks about care for the place where you are, build houses, plant vineyards, be a neighbor in those places. That's part of the way you sing the Lord's song. And you know, I wonder if you're seeing what I'm seeing, because I don't see it as a panacea or the long term future. But, but I'm beginning to see inside some of our congregations little bubbles of growth and renewal that are happening. And we, I don't think we want to turn that into the end all and be all, but maybe if we're planting gardens and building houses and living with the people, God's going to bring the increase.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:17:22]:

Yeah, here's, here's what I've noticed. And again, revitalization is different in different contexts, in different churches.

Philip Amerson [00:17:30]:

There you are.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:17:31]:

But one of the things that I am noticing is that for those who do it and do it well and it's sustained. So I'm not talking about the addition of a program, but those churches who do it well, they get to a place where they realize we actually have to become something different. And that, that, that, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a tough place to get to. I give an example what this looks like. I talked to a congregation of older individuals, and we were on a zoom call. There was about seven individuals there, and they were part of a community. They had a lot of disaffiliations, and, you know, they didn't. They didn't want to just survive, you know, saying, we.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:18:17]:

We didn't come this far to just figure out how we gonna make it to the next Sunday. And I was. I was really impressed by that. I'm sorry. I was really encouraged by that. And they said, have you ever heard of a electronic circuit rider? I said, no. Tell me more about your day of an electronic circuit rider. They said, you know, we're small congregation.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:18:34]:

Our pastor is pastoring several different congregations. And, you know, in terms of being a connectional system, you know, could there be a possibility where if there's another United Methodist preacher who records or live streams their sermon, could we show that on Sunday morning? And we can do the music part and we can do the pastoral part, but if we had a message, you know, that's a. It's like a circuit writer, you know, if we had a message that could speak to our community and that was done really well, we would be open to that. And they said, we don't even have to do it in this building. That if we found another building to do it in, we would be more than willing to do that if it reaches our community in meaningful ways.

Philip Amerson [00:19:20]:

And it's already happening. Yes.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:19:22]:

Yes, it is. Yes. And I thought if. If this group can start with that, like, that's a great starting point. And I thought, like, those are the possibilities. Or just talk to this group of Hispanic pastors. And our Hispanic ministry in Indiana is doing really, really well with just church starts and developing leaders.

Philip Amerson [00:19:44]:

Great.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:19:45]:

And they went. They went to a conference in Las Vegas and came back and said, we want to hold our own leadership summit with Hispanic pastors. You know, I said, man, this is like. This is what it means for things to be bubbling up, right? So, like, there are possibilities. There are many things happening. But I think one of. One of the ways that I think we can do even more of this is how are we training and equipping people to do ministry today? Because so often people are pastoring churches that don't exist anymore, Right? People are finding community in new ways. And so how do we help all of our pastors and leaders and lay people? You know, how can we change the spirit of call in terms of how people are living out their call? You know, I would love to see us As a conference, you know, be intentional about growing and training and developing more people into.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:20:45]:

Into pastoral ministry. You know, I think people are. I think it's ripe and I think the, you know, it's a. It's. It's a great time for people to think about how they can live out their call in this new landscape.

Philip Amerson [00:21:02]:

So how can people be helpful to you right now?

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:21:06]:

Yeah, sure. I think as people are listening is it won't even reframe the question in terms of not just helping me, but even as a conference, how can we live out our call to Indiana in new ways? You know, how can, how can we continue to become what God has called us to be in this new landscape? I think this state needs us. I just went to the Miami Detention Center. I think it was north of here. And I was saddened of where we've come as a country. But I was also encouraged of the many clergy and laity who had gathered around just to pray and remind us that these were human beings, you know, not, not, not aliens, but these were human beings who were experiencing this. And I think with all of our communities, while it might not be immigration, it might be something where people still need the gospel. And in God's design, the church is still the central place where people experience faith and grow as disciples.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:22:24]:

And so I, I would just ask people to really continue to consider who God might be calling us to be, not only as a conference, but if you're a part of a local church, is to really ask that question. There is, you know, as asking the question, who is God calling you to become? So, yeah, you're.

Philip Amerson [00:22:47]:

You're too modest. I'm going to tell them. I'm going to tell you how they can help you.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:22:52]:

Okay.

Philip Amerson [00:22:53]:

They can send you stories.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:22:55]:

Oh, I love that. Yeah, sure, sure. I love that.

Philip Amerson [00:22:58]:

You. Stories about exactly what you said. Who are you called to be and what's happening, and share them with. With Dr. Colwell Gross. Because I'm. I'm more and more convinced that stories are the currency, not just the street. I used to say that a lot.

Philip Amerson [00:23:17]:

But stories are the currency of, of the faith.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:23:21]:

Yes, they are. Yes, they are.

Philip Amerson [00:23:23]:

Yes. And if we want to be encouraged, let's tell a different story.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:23:27]:

Absolutely. I love that. I love that.

Philip Amerson [00:23:30]:

So. And, and you've helped me. I mean, the stories you've shared. The, the, the. The Miami Correctional up in Kokomo area is, Is an example. And I know others have been down at Camp Atterbury and here in Bloomington, we've been addressing the Desire to build a larger jail. And it was recently blocked. And I want to celebrate the fact that there were many pastors and lay members from United Methodist and other churches that said we don't need a 500 bed jail just so we can put more migrants in it.

Philip Amerson [00:24:15]:

We're good. We're going to have, you know, we're going to have an appropriate. But it's not just a jail. I'm going to get to preaching here and I need to be careful. But 70% of the people in our jails have not even had a trial.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:24:30]:

Sure. That's right.

Philip Amerson [00:24:32]:

They're pre trial. They're, they're there for one reason. Well, many reasons. Addiction, mental health. But mainly they're poor.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:24:41]:

Yeah.

Philip Amerson [00:24:42]:

They couldn't afford the bond.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:24:44]:

Yeah.

Philip Amerson [00:24:45]:

And I want to give thanks for the story in Bloomington of the church that has said and, and many faith groups were part of saying, no, our jail is just fine. Let's fix it up, but let's add alternatives and, and ways to offer people a different pathway rather than just sticking them in jail where, by the way, they're charged for room and board and commissary and the phone and they, you know, the privilege of being locked up means that they're going to even be poor when they get out.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:25:21]:

Wow. Yeah.

Philip Amerson [00:25:23]:

So that's hard. And John, John Wesley, of course, one of the things he did was visit the prison.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:25:32]:

That's right. Yeah.

Philip Amerson [00:25:34]:

I, I didn't mean to get preached on you there, brother.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:25:37]:

Where. There are somewhere in scripture where it talks about what you do to the least of these.

Philip Amerson [00:25:42]:

Yep.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:25:43]:

You know, you do unto me. When I was hungry, you, you brought me something to eat, stranger. You welcomed me when I was in prison. You visited me. I mean, this isn't something we're making up. This is, this is what, you know, you asked a question about scripture. This is, this is what we find a. As a people of faith.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:26:04]:

You know, how do we live that out now in the strange land?

Philip Amerson [00:26:07]:

Yeah. Well, Dr. Javon Colwell Gross, my, my, my gift. You are. What a gift.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:26:17]:

I appreciate the invitation, I really do.

Philip Amerson [00:26:20]:

Yeah. This is the To Be and Do podcast. We're privileged to have Dr. Caldwell Gross with us and thank you for your ministry. We want to be praying with you and for you. We will post ways people can get in contact with you, can find out about your book, can see some of the reels that are out there.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:26:43]:

Interesting. Embarrassing.

Philip Amerson [00:26:47]:

God bless, brother. It's been great to have you here.

Dr. Javon Caldwell Gross [00:26:50]:

Bless you.