Dr. Brad Miller [00:00:01]:

What inspires a new generation to answer the call to ministry even as churches face decline? Join Philip Amerson as he speaks with Tyler Brinks, who shares candid stories of faith, creativity, and resilience from diverse congregations and explores the surprising connections between contemplation, activism, and the sacred rhythm of running here on the To Be and Do podcast, brought to you by the Belonging Exchange clock strikes 10 coffee time again while the world is rushing to its judgment day. Judgment day.

Philip Amerson [00:00:58]:

Greetings, everyone. It's Philip Amerson with the To Be and Do podcast where we talk about the importance of community and interdependence and belonging to one another in this time in this world. And I've been giving a lot of attention to Methodists on this, on this podcast, and we thought we ought to broaden just a little bit, actually, to an antecedent denominational group. I mean, John was another. There are a couple of other Johns, you know, there's John Knox and John Calvin. And so we have the Reverend Tyler Brinks, who's one of the pastors, Associated First Presbyterian Church here in Bloomington. Tyler graduated from Hope College and from that school in Princeton, New Jersey, Princeton's theological seminary. And I've come to value Tyler as a good friend and welcome, Tyler.

Philip Amerson [00:01:57]:

It's good to have you on this podcast.

Tyler Brinks [00:02:00]:

Thank you for having me, Phil. Delight to be here.

Philip Amerson [00:02:02]:

Yeah. Well, one of the things that I would like to hear you chat with us about or share is what the world looks like to you as a younger person entering ministry. I've actually read an article last week that said some denominations are in trouble because there are too few people entering the ministry. And I know there are a lot of. A lot of denominational efforts to address that. But I think our listeners, our viewers would like to hear from you. Why did a talented young man choose the vocation of ministry, or did it choose you?

Tyler Brinks [00:02:46]:

Great question. I. In part, I think it shows me I've been afforded kind of a lot of just rich connections within my own denomination and a few others. I've made Methodist friends as. As this is testimony to, you know, I think as I, you know, I wasn't necessarily aware to the extent that it had been reported even as I was growing up that, you know, the church is so evidently on the decline. And while that demographically, I guess, sort of tracks, especially within mainline traditions, as you said moments ago, I went to Hope College, and so there is a degree of hope that I feel is there. You are more strongly embedded within my spirit than. Than all the narratives of decline.

Tyler Brinks [00:03:47]:

Whether that's in political capital or numbers of people in worship on a Sunday morning or in Sunday school or in the youth group. There's other metrics that I think are valuable to consider and just other stories that are compelling that give sort of a counter narrative. I've followed some of Ryan Burges work. He's written. He's sort of one of the chief demographers, I guess of in sociologists, sort of tracking sort of these, these things. And just this past Sunday I had seen him in Indianapolis a couple weeks ago and one of his more recent sort of, you know, his, his newsletters is like when will half of your church be dead? And which is just, I mean, you think about, you know, what are the sort of attention grabbing headlines. And that certainly captured one for me. And, and I sort of, I brought to our church and Sunday's sermon didn't necessarily plan to at the start of the week, but it sort of emerged.

Tyler Brinks [00:04:52]:

And I did have to say, I was like this is denominational, not congregational, so don't, don't worry about us. Precisely. But I did sort of say, well and 1, it's 2049 is when demographically half of the PCUSA will no longer with us, namely because of the baby boomers and a demographic anomaly. We are a little healthier than the Methodists, a little bit younger. Apparently 2047 is when the Methodists will be cut in half. He was sure to say, Ryan was sure to say that. He's like, I can't predict what the Holy Spirit will do. That doesn't mean it'll precisely look like that.

Tyler Brinks [00:05:37]:

But based on the current trends, that's where we're headed. So maybe there's a unique constraint there. There's also maybe, I mean, I sort of said, you know, and I think he gave a fascinating detail that if you were to sit in a church pew 50 years ago, you were most likely to sit beside a baby boomer. And if you were to sit beside somebody in the church pew this year, you were still likely to sit next to a baby boomer, most likely. So that's just a fascinating sort of story. But if we only look at those details, we miss a lot of people who are faithfully showing up and doing faithful ministry. And so that's sort of, I like to hold those things in tension. I look at that research that he, that Ryan Burge had shared and you know, at least the way I brought it to our folks and sort of in light of John chapter nine's sermon that day, the man who's been born blind, who Jesus encounters, sees on the side of the road, that if we sort of.

Tyler Brinks [00:06:48]:

Terry too long over the sort of facts and the trends and those statistics, we'll miss a lot of people who are near to the edge and have a lot of gifts to share and who indeed Jesus is inviting us to encounter and celebrate. So I hold those things in tension. I mean, I think you and many of our mutual friends have reinforced that. Both that sort of sense of seeing abundance where, you know, you might justifiably see scarcity or become sort of nervous about where things are headed. There's also, I think, great freedom within constraints and just so many beautiful and rich human stories and creativity. I know Mike likes to quote Willie Jennings. Mike Mather likes to quote Willie Jennings, who has a line, I think in his book After Whiteness, there's all sorts of unused gospel lying around. Yeah.

Tyler Brinks [00:07:54]:

So I wouldn't mind putting it to better use and to continue. Yeah.

Philip Amerson [00:07:58]:

Well, I read Ryan Burch and come away thinking it's clear he's a demographer and pretty good one. But democracy is not theology. And there, there are three Johns that we talked about earlier that all could, could be. You could find quotes where they would talk about the church of their age and how it was failing and dying and, you know.

Tyler Brinks [00:08:25]:

Correct.

Philip Amerson [00:08:26]:

But the Holy Spirit is maybe, maybe bigger and functioning in ways we don't see. And I know you've, you've had the privilege of working in diverse settings among wealthier people, among less wealthy people. One of the things I think Burge misses is the vitality of congregations like the one where you serve or the gift of diverse congregations. And there are many out there. So talk a little bit about what you see as a young pastor in terms of your congregation and beyond.

Tyler Brinks [00:09:03]:

I see, I mean, I do see real ingenuity. I mean, I see, see faithfulness as well. I see. I mean, I think because I have been in, and even just in my time in sort of official ministry and this doesn't include growing up or, you know, friends, churches and people I'm in otherwise relationship with. And I think of I moved to Indianapolis Raptor Seminary to serve as a pastoral resident at Second Presbyterian Church, which is the largest PCUSA church in the whole state and one of the largest in the denomination, where even their conversations about scarcity and declining membership were like, felt and, you know, were open among members and staff. Now that in no way, you know, in most those conversations, it was not like an abdication of, oh, we're on the Decline and it's, you know, it won't be changed. There was, there's laden, you know, I don't know, 20, 21. So it's still sort of COVID is looming and people are in mass.

Tyler Brinks [00:10:03]:

When I first got there. And then I also served Witherspoon Presbyterian Church as well, which is a historical black congregation in Indianapolis. Yeah, Phil, I've served a lot of, I think real. A variety of places. So when I moved to Indiana was right after seminary and I came to Second Presbyterian Church, which is the largest PCUSA church in the state, Indiana, one of the largest in the denomination. And I was a pastoral resident. So I was both an intentional sort of learner, you know, got to serve fairly immediately. But even there in a place that, I mean, I think when I got there there was 11 or 12 pastors or seminary trained folks on staff.

Tyler Brinks [00:10:46]:

Even there conversations around, you know, is there decline? We have lost membership in the last few years. There's, you know, movements, there's excitement, there's was a pandemic that interrupted a lot of things. And then I was also serving sort of concurrently as part of this residency at, at second. I was also serving at Witherspoon Presbyterian Church, which is I think at this time now the. The last remaining historically black church in the synods of Indiana and Illinois, apart from Chicago, apart from those in Chicago. And there again conversations on some amount of decline, but also partly they were the last remaining because Emmanuel Presbyterian Church merged within them in that time. Sort of a longer process that just concluded in my two years. They moved into a new building.

Tyler Brinks [00:11:38]:

There was like real vibrance. There is real vibrance there, their church again, stories of decline, experiences of that and vibrance, new building, excitement, really vibrant pastor there, Reverend Dr. Wheeler W. Harrison Jones. And then I did sort of a transitional year for myself and before I got to Bloomington and I was in Greensburg, Indiana, two yoked congregations, Kingston and Spring Hill Presbyterian churches. And you know, they've been yoked, sharing one pastor being sort of six miles apart since I think the 60s. I mean it's been a long standing experience to sort of share in ministry, to share life together. I mean relatives, one church to the next. There's stories that you could say, oh, there's again, there's numbers have declined, but there's just.

Tyler Brinks [00:12:30]:

It was such a broad experience for me to go from really large urban suburban church, historically Blackmore urban congregation, two rural churches, now moving to Bloomington. I mean that some of that sort of shifts around to various, you know, Political spectrum as well. I just. At each place there is desire to both maintain, sustain, build, you know, like, honor the past, try to discern what the moment for the future is. These are big questions that I also like. I hope that we're trying to not just do these things alone in isolation, but to share some of these conversations with Beers. And I think there's real opportunity when we can explore those various settings.

Philip Amerson [00:13:22]:

You're really privileged to have had that kind of diverse experience. I also know that you bring other perspectives to ministry. For instance, I know that you value contemplation and also activism. Those are sometimes sound polar opposites, but as you know, they're not. And. And I also know that you are a runner 1 what talk about each of those and the way it contributes to healthy ministry.

Tyler Brinks [00:14:00]:

I. I kind of grew up as sort of a quiet Ish person. I would say, yes, I was quiet. I still can be sort of quiet and. And introspective. And I also, like, grew up worshiping a lot. And. And, you know, not all worship would necessarily immediately be contemplative, but there was sort of a.

Tyler Brinks [00:14:17]:

This sort of sense that worship feeds into. Like worship is a beautiful end into itself. You can just sit into and worship. Nothing immediately can. Can change and resolve within you. And it's just something beautiful to be part of and part of, you know, the stories of Scripture. And. And in some sense, just like both an intuition and a sense of that worship leads to action, that prayer needs to, you know, evoke, like, real sort of changed encounter with.

Tyler Brinks [00:14:50]:

In the settings you're in. And. And so I think when I went to seminary, I was a little bit longing for spiritual mentors, perhaps, and. And sort of through some, you know, friends of friends and getting connected to some people. Even within some of my coursework, I got connected to one of the. He was both the interim director of the Black church studies program. He was one of my teammates on the intramural basketball team. And he was somebody I'd met through another one of our mutual friends, Fernando Rodriguez, who.

Tyler Brinks [00:15:25]:

And so Fernando introduced me to Kermit Moss, who happened to be my TA for my parish leadership class my third four years of school. And he introduced me to Howard Thurman. And so it was partly just being involved in some student activism. I mean, just in terms of sort of unique timing. Princeton Seminary published their historical audit on their relationship to slavery in the second year of my time at Princeton Seminary. And then over the next, that full year was conversations officially on campus. Lot of sort of, you know, in the lunchroom. How do we respond to this? Students sort of, you know, behind closed doors, trying to think, how do we, you know, should we write letters to the board of trustees? In some cases, we did that.

Tyler Brinks [00:16:16]:

How do we talk to the president? What do we need to know about, you know, the seminary's, you know, rulebook and policies that. How does. How does the board structure work? Who needs to go read representative order? Just figure out, you know, decorum and so on and so forth. What do we have to say about, respectively, politics? I mean, there's all sorts of activism that we're trying to do in small and sort of public ways. Yeah. And I just kind of. And Kermit, you know, just having been a student of. Of Thurman's work and.

Tyler Brinks [00:16:43]:

And also just seeing those. And have at that time, you know, was in his fifth or sixth year as a PhD student, had been there for his M. Div. Had been at the school for a long time to see a lot of variations of student active activity, activism and so on. And so he then referred me to Thurman and. And Thurman. I just really found a resonant voice, almost, like, hard to say why, apart from just like, there was a desire to sort of center down, which is phrase he often uses. There was this sense of God's like, really abiding spirit that.

Tyler Brinks [00:17:21]:

That was active in creation, active in personal encounter, active in the human heart. And that, you know, often led to changed real experience and encounter with. With people in the world. And so that just kind of really. Yeah. Just resonated with my. With myself.

Philip Amerson [00:17:39]:

Yeah. Thurman is someone whose name comes up frequently. We had Bob Hill, who's the dean of chapel at Marsh Chapel recently.

Tyler Brinks [00:17:50]:

Yeah.

Philip Amerson [00:17:50]:

And Bob talked about Howard Thurman. I had the privilege of preaching from that pulpit where Howard Thurman was preacher. And just to pull some things together for our listeners, there was a fellow at Boston University when Howard Thurman was the dean of that chapel and was teaching at the School of Theology. Well, there are many people that I know, but the one that is the most famous in that era, of course, is Martin Luther King Jr. And Howard Thurman was critical in helping. Helping King understand the relationship between faith and action. So. Yeah.

Tyler Brinks [00:18:36]:

And if I might thread another needle, you know, in part, King gets to know Thurman. Not immediately. That's not the first time he's met Thurman as one. Thurman is the dean of the chapel there at Boston. Thurman, I think it was his wife sue, who was maybe a roommate at Spelman College with Martin's mom. Yeah. And so Thurman and his wife, they traveled to India to visit Gandhi, I think when they were at Howard University. He was previously dean at Howard's Chapel, sort of on a son on a pilgrimage of friendship to India to consider what nonviolent resistance looks like.

Tyler Brinks [00:19:20]:

And this is like, in the 30s. Ish, I think 30s for early 40s at the most. And he comes back, and I think the very first people he and his wife have dinner with are like, you know, King Senior. And, you know, this is King. And I think Martin's like 7 years old at the time. I mean, he's just a little kid. And these conversation about nonviolent resistance activism, Gandhi's influence, and other. And other really big conversations, global conversations, are being had at his dinner table when he was just a kid, an elementary kid.

Tyler Brinks [00:19:52]:

So it's just kind of like a reminder, you know, nothing comes from nothing a little bit.

Philip Amerson [00:19:57]:

Right. And we could thread these needles on and on.

Tyler Brinks [00:20:00]:

I mean, we could do it all day.

Philip Amerson [00:20:02]:

That was a friend of Gandhi who influenced King. And King quoted in a couple of his books is a Methodist missionary named E. Stanley Jones. And so there are all of these interweaving. We dare not go down too many of those roads.

Tyler Brinks [00:20:24]:

We shouldn't. Yeah.

Philip Amerson [00:20:25]:

There's a sense in which nothing is new.

Tyler Brinks [00:20:31]:

One final one that we should probably say, just because we're both in Bloomington, Indiana, as we have this conversation, is that one of Howard Thurman's pastors is a Bloomington native, passed away a couple of years ago. Dr. Marvin Chandler, you know, native of Bloomington, pastored at Second Baptist Indiana, Hoosier graduate. And then later in his career was called to be the. The senior pastor at. At the church that Thurman founded, the Church for the Fellowship of All Peoples in San Francisco. And so after Chandler retired, he and his wife, Portia, moved back to Indiana. They moved to Indianapolis, and they worshiped at Witherspoon, which is one of the churches I served at.

Tyler Brinks [00:21:12]:

Right. Because Witherspoon, the senior pastor there, and I had developed a dear friendship we had, much of which had centered around Thurman and our connection to him. When Dr. Chandler passed away in, I think, June of 23, there was a service in Bloomington. Right. Then. There was also a service at Witherspoon in Indy, in December in Indianapolis at Witherspoon. And so I got to participate in that memorial service.

Philip Amerson [00:21:41]:

Wow.

Tyler Brinks [00:21:42]:

To, like, say the pastoral prayer for their family in that service. So it was. I Don't know. It's kind of hard to sort of make sense of all that. It's just such a. A kinship that's, you know, what started as just sort of a loose awareness, an introduction from a Princeton Seminary in New Jersey becomes this, like, really close degree of separation and impact between their family and. And it's just kind of a incredible confluence.

Philip Amerson [00:22:14]:

That's great. Well, let's. Let's close out this segment with a couple. I. I didn't ask you about running, so I'm going to try to weave that into this question. But first, related to it, what are you reading? And does your reading lead to what you think as you run, or do you just run and not. And try to let the mind be clear?

Tyler Brinks [00:22:41]:

I often am thinking about things I'm reading when I'm running. I'm often listening to stuff on runs. Right. It's a great place to restore. And I just. I find there's a lot of creative energy that my brain just works through as I'm partially connected to a cell phone, but also kind of detached and sort of get to think. And I mean, I think I've written a handful of sermons, more or less on my. Or at least got main ideas and, you know, key points on, you know, it's kind of unfortunate.

Tyler Brinks [00:23:13]:

You're like, oh, I'm going to do my leisure outside of office hours, and all of a sudden the sermon is coming together, or other things are coming together in that time. But it, but it certainly makes running. It's a reminder of how sacred it's been in my own sort of personal life and story. And so I can't quite shake all that. You asked what I'm reading. I'm always reading kind of too many things at once, which is sort of blessing and curse. I actually have just been reading partly because of our church group. We're reading a book on the Apostles Creed by Ben Myers, who's out of Australia a few years old now.

Tyler Brinks [00:23:52]:

It's part of a little catechism, a series on catechisms. And there's, you know, ancient tradition of studying the creeds before being baptized on Easter. So my colleague Tommy Graham, senior pastor here, he started. He's been doing that on Tuesdays and he was away for spring break. And so I got to lead class on Tuesday. And so we were most immediately. That book.

Philip Amerson [00:24:17]:

That's great. Yeah. Studying the creeds before Easter. Good thing.

Tyler Brinks [00:24:26]:

Everlasting. Yeah. The resurrection of the body. All these things are right.

Philip Amerson [00:24:31]:

Well, thank you, Tyler, for this opportunity to visit a bit. We're going to do another recording and it will be up in a couple of weeks as well. From when we're recording, I should say look for Tyler's episodes after Easter, probably a week or two after Easter. But it's been great visiting with you and we'll talk again.

Tyler Brinks [00:24:59]:

Thank you, Phil. Talk to you soon.

Dr. Brad Miller [00:25:03]:

For more episodes of the To Be and Do podcast, you can find us on Apple, Spotify, YouTube and at our website, BelongingExchange.org so come on, old friend, it's coffee time again.

Tyler Brinks [00:25:33]: